…the one God who revealed Himself in the Old Testament as Jehovah revealed himself in His Son, Jesus Christ. Thus Jesus Christ was and is God. In other words, Jesus is the one true God manifested in flesh, for in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (John 1:1-14; I Timothy 3:16; Colossians 2:9).
While fully God, Jesus was also fully man, possessing a full and true humanity. He was both God and man. Moreover, the Holy Spirit is God with us and in us. Thus God is manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration.
This is the doctrinal statement of a modern day movement that has its roots in the teaching of a man named Sabellius. This teaching is closely related to Modalistic Monarchianism and Patripassianism.
I will tell you up front that this teaching is considered heresy. Your task is to tell me whether or not you agree and why.
Are these posts intended for your new church, or just your blog audience in general?
ReplyDeleteWhen I first read this, I wanted to divorce myself from what I have been thought about the two heresies that you listed towards end of your post, and look at this with fresh eyes.
With that mind set, I was going to say, at first, that I didn't see anything wrong with the text of this doctrinal statement. However, when I started to process what it says, it started to seem incoherent to me.
"…the one God who revealed Himself in the Old Testament as Jehovah revealed himself in His Son, Jesus Christ. Thus Jesus Christ was and is God. In other words, Jesus is the one true God manifested in flesh, for in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."
Is this saying that when Jesus can to Earth, that Jehovah ceased to exist on His throne in heaven and all deity was confined to the shell of a mortal man, even if it was the "God-man" Jesus? If so, that has some serious problems. God, didn't just create Earth and step back and let it go. God continues to sovereignly orchestrate all things and hold all things together by the power of His might. If there is at any point where God, steps down from that throne and relinquishes that control, the universe would cease to exist. However, if God is simultaneously on His throne and fully present in Jesus Christ, then the modalist has some serious issues; because, that either means that there are two gods, or this is the beginnings of the Trinity.
"While fully God, Jesus was also fully man, possessing a full and true humanity. He was both God and man. Moreover, the Holy Spirit is God with us and in us. Thus God is manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration."
My major objection to this, is that it limits the role of Christ to merely redeemer. While Christ is our redeemer, He is also "the one mediator between God and man." In some senses, redemption was a once for all activity that was accomplished 2000 years ago, our need for mediation never ceases. So, if Christ ceases to exist, so that the Holy Spirit can be with us and in us, then there is a serious issue.
The only way that this system could even begin to work is if God were continually phase shifting between the three modes of existence. In which case, the entirety of existence would cease to exist.
The only way that the biblical teachings about God can work is if God the father is on His throne orchestrating and holding all things together, while simultaneously God the Son is continually before God the father as a sacrifice and mediator, while simultaneously Holy Spirit is with us and in us regenerating us and sanctifying us. This demands either tri-theism or a tri-unity of God.
David
1.) I agree it is heresy - only because it didn't line up with orthodox teaching
ReplyDelete2.) God's presence filled the first temple built by men, how much easier to fill the second temple - a man - created by God himself?
3.) Jesus has his own will in the gospels - a will that didn't line up with God's will when it came down to his humanity (at least not in all points). I wonder if that difference ceased to exist after the resurrection? Probably as human frailty would have been removed.
4.) We know according to scripture that God is Spirit (a type of being) along with being love, jealous (emotions). Jesus is still a man according to the gospels and returned to His Father as a man. Can these 2 be unified? One is Spirit and one remained a man?
5.) Technically, I think God could exist in multiple phases simultaneously assuming he is not bound by time or space.
6.) It is easier to understand the Holy Spirit being God than it is to believe Jesus was God in my own mind (being of the same nature - spirit)
David,
ReplyDeleteMy posts are always intended for my blog audience--which sometimes includes the new church that I serve.
Chris and David,
I'm going to reserve comment until Thursday...but until then thank you very much for your interaction.
Greetings Mike Leake
ReplyDeleteYes. In many ways, Modalistic Monarchianism/Patripassianism doctrine is indeed wrong.
But sadly, the trinity doctrine is also equally wrong in this regard:
that both Modalistic Monarchianism and Trinity doctrines try to make
Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah our Lord,
into Almighty GOD!!
And both doctrines state that you must believe that the Lord Jesus
is Almighty GOD to be saved!
In this regard, both doctrines do err and are scripturally wrong.
IMHO!
Both doctrines appeared hundreds of years after the ascension of Christ.
Both doctrines try to explain how Jesus can be both God and man at the same time!! The Godman!!
But the original faith which was once delivered unto the saints [Jude 3] did not suffer from this problem.
The original faith has always been:
That there is solely ONE GOD,
the Father.
And Jesus of Nazareth, is the one man, the one human being, whom Almighty GOD raised from the dead, made him, both Lord and Christ, and exalted him to His own right hand.
Hence, Jesus of Nazareth is
the Lord Jesus Christ,
a man approved of Almighty GOD,
who is currently at the right of the ONE GOD in the heavens. Whom we await for his return.
(1 Cor 8:4) ... there is none other God but one.
(1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(1 Th 1:9-10) For they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Hundreds of years after the pure, true, apostolic faith was propagated;
Greek, Hellenistic and pagan philosophy/doctrines changed the human Jesus into a demigod then into a godman.
And in response, both the doctrines of the Trinity and Modalistic Monarchianism tried to solve this self-inflicted problem.
The solution then, is to return to the pure faith and doctrine as taught in the Scriptures:
That there is solely ONE GOD, the Father.
And there is solely one man, one human, whom the ONE GOD has made
"Lord of all", the man Messiah Jesus.
(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;
And indeed the day is coming where ...
(Phil 2:11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
May I suggest that one can prayerfully begin this journey of recovery by viewing a helpful video at
The Human Jesus
Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor
Adam,
ReplyDeleteThe verses you site are one side of the issue. I agree wholeheartedly that the OT and NT explicitly affirms that God is one. But this "true apostolic faith" that you point to also has explicit claims of the deity of Jesus the Christ.
Consider the claims of Jesus in John 8. "Before Abraham was I AM". Why else do you think they wanted to stone him? He was explicitly claiming to be YHWH.
John 1 explicitly states that The Word is God and then explicitly says that The Word made flesh is Jesus. God made flesh is John's assertion.
Romans 9:5 refers to Christ as the "God over all".
Titus 2:13, "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ". Certainly you could attempt to make an argument that this "and" is a reference to two people...but clearly within the context the and is "God and Savior" as two functions of Jesus Christ and not two different persons.
The author of Hebrews certainly considers the Son to be God. Consider Hebrews 1:8.
These are only a few. There are a few other explicit references as well as many implicit references.
The references that you are sighting are the other side of the coin. This is why the early church had to struggle with these. The apostolic claim is that this Jesus is both God and man.
There is one sense in which this doctrine of the Trinity did appear in its present form hundreds of years after the Ascension of Christ. But that does not necessarily mean that it is not faithful to the apostolic claim.
I will leave it at that for now...
P.S. I thought you died in the 1500's????
ReplyDelete